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Data di Liberazione di Milano ...

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sfj
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Data di Liberazione di Milano ...

Messaggio da sfj » 2 giugno 2019, 14:44

when was Milano liberated?

Or: Is the using of the "Era fascista" after 25. Aprile 1945 normal ???
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Sorry for writing english. My Italian is not good enough to write Italian. So if somebody translate it - if nessessary - its fine with me. (No need to answer in english. Reading Italian is a lot easier than writing it.
I had 7 years Latin at school (and the links to google translate) ...

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Thenewguy
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Re: Data di Liberazione di Milano ...

Messaggio da Thenewguy » 2 giugno 2019, 15:07

Hi Stephan,

Yes, it is possible to see "Era Fascista" that early after the end of the war. Not normal, but not unheard of, either

Official liberation date of Milan is 25 April 1945, the day of Partisan Insurrection of the city. That day is also accepted as the "Liberation Day" throughout Italy.

There are some postal documents known postmarked early morning hours of 25 April in Milan, but of course that day postal service did not function

The German High Command signed the surrender of Northern Italy on 29 April, and it was effective 2 May. The 2 May is a "de jure" end of the RSI. However, by that day, everything was already finished. Even on 29 April there was nothing left, maybe except for some diehard fascist snipers attempting take a last stand here and there.

One of the first things the Allies did was to proclaim a postal moratorium. It was effective 30 April to 15 May, though the effective dates vary. Local distribution is known to have happened, while mail transport was stopped. I would like to know if there is an arrival postmark. If there is, I would expect it to show 17 or 18 May 1945, or later.

Ciao: Ciao: :cin:

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debene
Messaggi: 4784
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Re: Data di Liberazione di Milano ...

Messaggio da debene » 2 giugno 2019, 16:30

My dear Stephan,
you must remember the atmosphere of that period: CAOS!

In this caos of course is reflected in postal history.

As a meter collector I give my evidence extracted from some AICAM publication

this first was just in time
IMPRONTA1060.jpg
the other two is after as you want to see
IMPRONTA1061.jpg
IMPRONTA1059.jpg
of course you know that is true the contrary too and you can find the so-called "scalpellate"
before that period, in a hurry race to cancel the terrible period of fascist era

remember that sometimes you can believe to have found this sort of object but indeed
is a just a mistake of the operator that change in a wrong manner the number of the "datario"

last I show you a very interesting document; as you can see It could be a late use of Era Fascista,
but how late it is !!!!!! 6.9.51 XXIX. The curious thing is that date and Era Fascista match and so
it could be a mistake of postal clerk, but because the date and Era Fascista are two different pieces
it is an enigma. If it's true maybe this is a very important document.
IMPRONTA1062.jpg
bye :abb: :abb:
sergio
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Ultima modifica di debene il 2 giugno 2019, 16:49, modificato 1 volta in totale.
Sergio De Benedictis
Sostenitore
Socio C.I.F.T. - A.I.C.A.M - A.N.C.A.I. - U.S.F.I. - A.I.M. - I.S.S.P.

Quando la Filatelia è culturaLink al mio sito : Esculapio Filatelico

Visita la mia rubrica sul Postalista :Il bastone di Asclepio

Guarda le mie vendite su Delcampe: nickname "debene".

I miei interessi :
Tematica medica; Antichi Stati; Storia Postale di Bari; Precancel U.S.A., Affrancature Meccaniche; Letteratura Filatelica; Erinnofili;Collezione A.S.F.E.

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sfj
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Re: Data di Liberazione di Milano ...

Messaggio da sfj » 2 giugno 2019, 16:36

I have much luck - this letter was already in the sorted section - so I only need to look through the Milano covers of that machine (the unsorted pile with all cities is much bigger)
schuchardt_381.jpg
Seams that the Moratorium was a little bit longer ... possible a lot of post in Milan - or the post office in Cizzolo has other things to do ...
Non hai i permessi necessari per visualizzare i file allegati in questo messaggio.
--
Sorry for writing english. My Italian is not good enough to write Italian. So if somebody translate it - if nessessary - its fine with me. (No need to answer in english. Reading Italian is a lot easier than writing it.
I had 7 years Latin at school (and the links to google translate) ...

Visit http://www.bollatrice.de The german site on Italian Machine Cancels

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sfj
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Re: Data di Liberazione di Milano ...

Messaggio da sfj » 2 giugno 2019, 16:52

Sergio,

meter marks are a little bit different - the postal regulations forbid any changes to the mechanics.

And: possible the "era" and the "year" was on the same wheel,
so he could only chose between 51 XXIX and 51 XXX ...

from the technical point this would make sense: each additional wheel put instability into the whole object - putting six years (each with two "era"s on one wheel whould mean that you have a large monolitical block in the same diameter as the month wheel.
When you look to the days of these wheel date stamps - most often yhou will find two additional "diggits" for the day and the repetion of the digits "-123" in the first digits - to allow equal size wheels for all the elements.

These cancels in machines get a lot of "preassure" when operating - and small moveable objects tend to get damaged ...

CU
Stephan
--
Sorry for writing english. My Italian is not good enough to write Italian. So if somebody translate it - if nessessary - its fine with me. (No need to answer in english. Reading Italian is a lot easier than writing it.
I had 7 years Latin at school (and the links to google translate) ...

Visit http://www.bollatrice.de The german site on Italian Machine Cancels


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debene
Messaggi: 4784
Iscritto il: 13 novembre 2011, 16:19
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Re: Data di Liberazione di Milano ...

Messaggio da debene » 2 giugno 2019, 18:35

I understand your thought:

because the meter machine was closed (as we say "piombata") the post office was not able
to change and so is much common to see after 25 of april the Era Fascista.

On the contrary during that period the postal regulation in some offices have no sense and many post officer
open the machine and change or even destroy the "targhetta" in Era Fascista and Fasci in punzone and so we call
them "scalpellate".

But this is not the same for the cancellation of stamps or I ignore something about this regulation?

Ciao:

sergio
Sergio De Benedictis
Sostenitore
Socio C.I.F.T. - A.I.C.A.M - A.N.C.A.I. - U.S.F.I. - A.I.M. - I.S.S.P.

Quando la Filatelia è culturaLink al mio sito : Esculapio Filatelico

Visita la mia rubrica sul Postalista :Il bastone di Asclepio

Guarda le mie vendite su Delcampe: nickname "debene".

I miei interessi :
Tematica medica; Antichi Stati; Storia Postale di Bari; Precancel U.S.A., Affrancature Meccaniche; Letteratura Filatelica; Erinnofili;Collezione A.S.F.E.

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sfj
Messaggi: 210
Iscritto il: 11 maggio 2008, 12:02
Località: Bietigheim-Bissingen / Württemberg / Germania
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Re: Data di Liberazione di Milano ...

Messaggio da sfj » 2 giugno 2019, 22:44

debene ha scritto:
2 giugno 2019, 18:35
I understand your thought:

because the meter machine was closed (as we say "piombata") the post office was not able
to change and so is much common to see after 25 of april the Era Fascista.

On the contrary during that period the postal regulation in some offices have no sense and many post officer
open the machine and change or even destroy the "targhetta" in Era Fascista and Fasci in punzone and so we call
them "scalpellate".

But this is not the same for the cancellation of stamps or I ignore something about this regulation?

Ciao:

sergio
"Scalpellate" were done at the post office sometimes against the rules of the Headquarter, but mostly on orders given by supperior offices (or by order of the local commander of the "Resistenza" (C.L.N.) / ""GNR" (here e.g. the removing of the "R" in "R.P. PAGATO" or the allied forces.)
All these changes were done by "authorized personal", e.g. the local postal administrator or someone authorized by him.

As you say - the machines for the "rossi" are "piombata" - and the people using them are not autorised to open them. For some of these machines you need an "authorized person" when you want to change the "advertisment", others allow to change the advertisment on "plombed" machines.

BTW: your examples of "late usage" leave also the "Fasces" and in the 1951 examples the "stemma sabaudo" intact.
Auila is not so deep in the south - must be a small group of monarchist hidden there in the agricultural cooperative ...

In Germany the "rossi" used after the liberation all have removed the Swastica, many of them have removed the complete eagle.
--
Sorry for writing english. My Italian is not good enough to write Italian. So if somebody translate it - if nessessary - its fine with me. (No need to answer in english. Reading Italian is a lot easier than writing it.
I had 7 years Latin at school (and the links to google translate) ...

Visit http://www.bollatrice.de The german site on Italian Machine Cancels


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