1853 - Dal Portogallo alla Svizzera Via Genova

[pt.filatelia]

Hello All,

First post and hope is ok to write in English, I do not speak or write Italian, I could use google translate but I think would be better to write in English.

For the postal history collectors out there, I’m trying to decipher the postal rates/taxes of a letter that was sent from Portugal to Genoa and then readdressed “RETRODATO” to Switzerland. Hope someone has some insight.

The route was: Fundão - Porto - St.Jean Luz (05.10.1853) - Marseille (07.10.1853) - Draguignan (08.10.1853) - Nizza (09.10.1853) - Genova (13.10.1853) – RETRODATO - Domodossola (15.10.1853) - Martigny (17.10.1853) – (readdressed again) - Geneve (19.10.1853).

First question: Regarding the postal convention between France and the Kingdom of Sardinia, that was signed in Turin in 21.10.1850 and ratified on 03.11.1850., Does anyone know when it was placed in effect? I saw some collections that state it was 01.04.1851 (1) but they don't cite the source. Is the source the law from 6 febbraio 1851 n.1134 (2)?

(1) https://honegger-philatelie.ch/images/p ... aturen.pdf
(2) http://dircost.di.unito.it/root_subalp/1851.shtml

Second question: What was the postal rate for sending a letter from Génoa, Italy to Martigny, Switzerland on October 1853? From what read from the convention from 21.10.1850, it should be 20 centimes for a letter up to 7,5g. Is this correct?

Thank you!

[Laurent]

Hello,


1/.
I've an original item of the convention.

&1.jpg

The french-sardinian postal convention went into effect (in France) with the decree of 1851, March the 14th :

&2.jpg

Particular and concret regulations were added on 1851, June the 1rst* : these cancelled the former postal agreements. (* added 4 days later in Torino)

&3.jpg

THEN this postal convention HAS NOT been placed in effect BEFORE June 1851 !. French philatelic literature gives July the 1rst for effect.



2/.
According to the book Letter Mails from and to the Old Italian States (Mentaschi & Mathà, 2008) the postal rate for a letter sent in Switzerland was 40 centesimi. The 20 centesimi rate was the border rate (locations under 45 km distant from the swiss-sardinian border)


Best regards, Laurent.

[pt.filatelia]

Thank you, Laurent.

1/
I can see that décret was effective on 01.07.1851 and the postal rates from Portugal and Spain were lightly reduced. Via land was 0,5c and via sea was 0,7c up to 7,5g. I mixed the dates on my initial post. So, we have Convention between France and Sardaigne signed in Paris on 09.11.1850, ratified on 08.03.1851 and in effect on 11.07.1851.

2/
Regarding the Convention between Switzerland and Sardaigne, signed in Turin on 21.10.1850, ratified on 03.11.1850, I didn't find (yet) when was effective but I just found the Swiss document "Postvertrag zwischen der schweizerischen Eidgenossenschaft und dem Königreiche Sardinien." from 18.01.1851 (1). Perhaps it was effective in Italy according to the law from 6 febbraio 1851 n.1134 (1)? ... I can see the postal rate of 0,40c on art.5 ...

(1) https://www.amtsdruckschriften.bar.admi ... d=10000541
(2) http://dircost.di.unito.it/root_subalp/1851.shtml

3/ Ok, so now that I have the rates, trying to resolve the total sum.
The letter in question, when it was readdressed, payed 140 centesimi from Genoa to Martigny, Switzerland. 140 centesimi is not multiple of 0,40c .... Trying to find where this 140 centesimi comes from … any idea?

It contains 70 centesimi written on it. That matches the rate from Portugal to Sardaigne via sea up to 7,5g using France as intermediary but “7” was crossed out, likely when was readdressed and “RETRODATO” applied and then the new tax of 140 written.

[pt.filatelia]

Hello,

Attached the letter in question.

Apart of understanding the postal rates, there are two cancellations on the back that I don't know where they were applied, perhaps someone has an idea:

The first seems to be from 14.10.1853 and perhaps applied in TORINO ? it has a S M on the bottom. See here http://retroreveal.org/images/ss/36961
The second one I do not know : http://retroreveal.org/images/ss/36962

Thank you

[metical]

The first seems to be from 14.10.1853 and perhaps applied in TORINO ? it has a S M on the bottom.

Sì, sembra TORINO. In basso sarà "8 M": 8 mattina (8 horas da manhã).


Giorgio

[pt.filatelia]

Sì, sembra TORINO. In basso sarà "8 M": 8 mattina (8 horas da manhã).


Giorgio

Grazie Giorgio!

[Laurent]

Hello,

14 has not been written in Switzerland, but as usual on arriving in Kingdom of Sardinia. The amount paid by the addressee in Genève doesn't appear !

From this book of Mentaschi & Mathà :

§§.jpg

Some Italian member of the forum could surely explain to you this "retrodato" system (I hope so !).

Best regards,
Laurent.

[pt.filatelia]

14 has not been written in Switzerland, but as usual on arriving in Kingdom of Sardinia. The amount paid by the addressee in Genève doesn't appear !
Some Italian member of the forum could surely explain to you this "retrodato" system (I hope so !).

Hello,

Interesting. Does the RETRODATTO implied any additional taxes/costs? such as the increase from 70 centesimi to 140 centesimi?

Thank you!

From this book of Mentaschi & Mathà :

Side note and not important but that particular section of the book considers Hispano-Sardinian convention entered effective on 01.02.1852. Not sure what were the authors source but I believe it was effective on 11.03.1852. Also, I believe the rates applied were the ones from the France-Sardinien convention. Art.8 from the Hispano-Sardinian convention states that Spain will deliver letters from Portugal and Gibraltar to Sardinien, up to the border of France free of charge.

[pt.filatelia]

Good morning All,

wondering if anyone has additional notes/references about RETRODATO and if implied additional costs?

Thank you

[ari]

Boker Tov,

can't help but I've found this:
https://www.lafilatelia.it/forum/viewto ... 1&start=11

hope it helps

[pt.filatelia]

Hi,

I read that post and it seems there are a couple of similar interpretations by the community. There are also references to the following studies:

L'uso del bollo RETRODATO è ampiamente spiegato da Francesco Lombardo (dal esempio sardo-siciliano) nel suo articolo pubblicato nel numero 47 (maggio 2012) della rivista Vaccari (pp. 51/54).
Nuovo Corriere Filatelico di Piero Damilano
Tratto dall' inserto speciale de "IL FOGLIO dell' Unione Filatelica Subalpina , Torino - L'Istituto del Retrodato". Studio di Arnaldo Pace.

Only the first has indication of the exact date/number. If someone has more details about the other two, please, would be helpful.

Other than that, I have some additional questions that some of you might know:

Any articles/studies about the route from Nizza to Genoa? I believe is a route made by ship, correct? I'm interested to know more about this route, shipping companies, schedules and perhaps finding information about how and by whom was the letter sent in this segment.
Was the VIA DI NIZZA mark normally applied in Nizza? Any articles/studies about this mark?

Thank you in advance.

[pt.filatelia]

2/.
According to the book Letter Mails from and to the Old Italian States (Mentaschi & Mathà, 2008) the postal rate for a letter sent in Switzerland was 40 centesimi. The 20 centesimi rate was the border rate (locations under 45 km distant from the swiss-sardinian border)

Hi, I do not have that book but according to the convention it should be 30 km. Wondering if is a typo on the book or maybe I am reading it wrong.

[pt.filatelia]

Second question: What was the postal rate for sending a letter from Génoa, Italy to Martigny, Switzerland on October 1853? From what read from the convention from 21.10.1850, it should be 20 centimes for a letter up to 7,5g. Is this correct?

2/.
According to the book Letter Mails from and to the Old Italian States (Mentaschi & Mathà, 2008) the postal rate for a letter sent in Switzerland was 40 centesimi. The 20 centesimi rate was the border rate (locations under 45 km distant from the swiss-sardinian border)

Hi, I think I have a explanation for the application of the 14c rate, which is two times the initial rate.
The convention between Switzerland and Sardinia suffered changes between the version drafted in 21.10.1850 and the one that was effective on 01.04.1851. Specially the article 6 where the rates were increased.

Art.6 Die Taren, die in der Schweiz fur die schweizerisch=sardinische und fur die durch Sardinien gehende Korrespondenz bezogen weden sollen, sind in dem Tarif zusammengestellt. Nach diesem Tarif werden fur einen einfachen Brief bis auf 1/2 Loth (7 1/2 Gramme) aus oder nach Sardienien 40 Centime erhoben, mit Ausnahme der Korrespondenz zwischen den nachbenannten Bureaux der Granzrayons, fur welche die tare des einfachen Briefes auf 20 Centime festgelegt ist: (..)

And then we have art.24 which I think is relevant for this case:

Art.24 Durch die Posten von Sardinien und der Schweiz können im Wechselveriebt aus einem dieser Länder in das andere, und dann, so weit es möglich sein wird, auch nach solchen Ländern, deren Korrespondenzen durch die beiden Postverwaltungen vermittelt werden, Briefe, chargirt abgesandt werden. Das Porto dieser Briefe betragt stets das Doppelte der Tare dur die gewohnlichen Briefe.
Das Porto der chargirten Briefe aus einem der beiden kontrahierenden Länden nach dem andern muss stets zum Boraus und bis zum Bestimmungsorte bezahlt werden. Was das Porto der nach den fremden Staaten bestimmten chargirten Briefe anbertrifft, so ist dasselbe gliechfalls bis zu den Punften oder Gränzen im Boraus zu bezahlen, welche in gegenwärtigem Bertrag bezuglich der Frankirung der gewöhnlichen Briefe nach dem betreffenden fremden Ländern bestimmt worden sind.

Therefore, could be that the letter returned to the Genoa post office, RETRODATO applied, the initial rate was canceled and it was applied the double rate according to art.24.

Any comments are appreciated.

Thank you

[pt.filatelia]

14 has not been written in Switzerland, but as usual on arriving in Kingdom of Sardinia. The amount paid by the addressee in Genève doesn't appear !

Buone feste!

Does anyone know where I can find the source of this information?
The book in question does not cite any sources and I cannot find from where the 1,40 for up to 7,5g comes from.

Grazie

Rev LB Jan 2021