Chiedo scusa, ma mi trovo davanti a questi esemplari in cui la dicitura "Edinaja Rossija" mi fa credere appartengano al periodo dell'armata Denikin del 1919...tuttavia non corrispondono ne' i valori ne i colori...sapreste dirmi qualcosa?
Grazie...come sempre
Danbell
Le Armate Bianche del Gen. Denikin - Emissioni di fantasia
Moderatore: sandro_z
Le Armate Bianche del Gen. Denikin - Emissioni di fantasia
Non hai i permessi necessari per visualizzare i file allegati in questo messaggio.
Colleziono: ITALIA REGNO-REPUBBLICA-COLONIE
VATICANO
U.R.S.S.
___________________
Visita il mio negozio su DEL CAMPE -danbell -
VATICANO
U.R.S.S.
___________________
Visita il mio negozio su DEL CAMPE -danbell -
Re: Russia Armate Bianche
Ciao Daniele,
non ti so rispondere nel merito, potrebbero essere dei saggi, comunque li trovo spettacolari.
Devo dire che i francobolli antichi sono tutti splendidi, da qualunque luogo del mondo provengano!
non ti so rispondere nel merito, potrebbero essere dei saggi, comunque li trovo spettacolari.
Devo dire che i francobolli antichi sono tutti splendidi, da qualunque luogo del mondo provengano!
S T A F F
Paolo Cardillo - Consulente filatelico.
Perizio e catalogo tutti i francobolli dell'Area Italiana.
Lotti delle aste BidInside prenotabili per email
Visita il mio sito personale
spcstamps@hotmail.it
SOCIO USC
SOCIO USFI
SOCIO CIFT
Paolo Cardillo - Consulente filatelico.
Perizio e catalogo tutti i francobolli dell'Area Italiana.
Lotti delle aste BidInside prenotabili per email
Visita il mio sito personale
spcstamps@hotmail.it
SOCIO USC
SOCIO USFI
SOCIO CIFT
Re: Russia Armate Bianche
Neanch'io colleziono Russia, ma il periodo imperiale mi piace, devo dire, così come mi piace il linguaggio russo... purtroppo, ne di una cosa ne dell'altra sono un conoscitore...
Ho girato la tua richiesta a chi ne sa più di me
http://www.rusfs.narod.ru/civil_war/07/07p1.htm
Il russo non lo so, ma il titolo sono in grado di traslitterartelo anch'io
Фантазия на тему выпуска генерала Деникина
Fantasia na temu vypuska generala Denikina, qualcosa tipo Fantasia attorno alle emissioni del Generale Denikin
Si tratta di emissioni di fantasia...
Ho girato la tua richiesta a chi ne sa più di me
http://www.rusfs.narod.ru/civil_war/07/07p1.htm
Il russo non lo so, ma il titolo sono in grado di traslitterartelo anch'io
Фантазия на тему выпуска генерала Деникина
Fantasia na temu vypuska generala Denikina, qualcosa tipo Fantasia attorno alle emissioni del Generale Denikin
Si tratta di emissioni di fantasia...
Re: Russia Armate Bianche
Ti ringrazio ameis...trovarsi di fronte a dei francobolli di "fantasia" e' abbastanza curioso, visto anche e soprattutto il periodo in cui dovrebbero essere stati cmq emessi.
Se non sbaglio siamo in piena guerra civile,nel novembre del '17 i bolscevichi vanno al potere ed inizia la guerra civile contro le Armate Bianche di Denikin prima e di Wrangel poi fino al 1920 anno in cui l'Armata Rossa dopo la fine della guerra Russo-Polacca, si riversa con la sua forza in massa contro le Armate Bianche e le posizioni fortificate in Crimea cadono inesorabilmente con l'evacuazione a Costantinopoli....in tutto questo qualche burlone...pensa:" ...Perche' non fare qualche emissione di fantasia del generale Denikin..."
Roba da non credere...
Grazie
danbell
Se non sbaglio siamo in piena guerra civile,nel novembre del '17 i bolscevichi vanno al potere ed inizia la guerra civile contro le Armate Bianche di Denikin prima e di Wrangel poi fino al 1920 anno in cui l'Armata Rossa dopo la fine della guerra Russo-Polacca, si riversa con la sua forza in massa contro le Armate Bianche e le posizioni fortificate in Crimea cadono inesorabilmente con l'evacuazione a Costantinopoli....in tutto questo qualche burlone...pensa:" ...Perche' non fare qualche emissione di fantasia del generale Denikin..."
Roba da non credere...
Graziedanbell
Colleziono: ITALIA REGNO-REPUBBLICA-COLONIE
VATICANO
U.R.S.S.
___________________
Visita il mio negozio su DEL CAMPE -danbell -
VATICANO
U.R.S.S.
___________________
Visita il mio negozio su DEL CAMPE -danbell -
Re: Russia Armate Bianche
Non so come si fa ad allegare un file e non essendo annoverato tra i sostenitori, credo di non poterlo neanche fare. Comunque, grazie ai prodigi della tecnologia dei traduttori automatici (!), eccoti una versione comprensibilissima dell'articolo che ti ho postato prima
Fantasy on the theme of the release of General denikin
According to 3.I. To Markovich, the stamps Of denikina with the rosettes instead of the rating appeared on the market in 1919 and in this case were advertised as trial. At present they are sold as by "essays", however, analysis shows that these stamps are nothing else but one of the fantasies of those times.
Let us begin from the fact that the stamps are printed on the simple paper, whereas the present tests of the release of General denikin were printed on the dense clay coated paper. The paper is yellowish from the reverse side. About these tests he wrote "north -Kavkzski1 collector" in 1928.
From other side, Aleksandr Epstein voices the completely substantiated opinion that under the conditions of the retreat of white armies for entire front, the stamps were printed on that paper, which was near at hand. This really so, if we speak about the mass print runs of stamps, but to me it is not entirely understandable, why for the essay (tests) it did not be located several it was sheet grow prettier paper. Another matter, if these stamps were the part of the print run, which did not enter into the rotation, as A. Epstein considers. By the way, by this it is possible to explain the fact that the stamps with the rosettes are not philatelic rarity.
Were these stamps of essay, tests or by the part of the print run, is completely incomprehensibly why it was change the colors of stamps and create problems both for the post workers and for the population. Very clear example - stamp with the rosettes of two-ruble rating, which was released in the colors of usual desyatirublevoy stamp.
It is possible to visualize, by what "kindly, quiet" would in a word mention post service post workers, if this release nevertheless took place.
Should be focused attention also to the design of stamps. The ruble stamp of Russia served as the model for the ruble stamps of release. It is natural that the figure was substantially simplified, inscription "POST STAMP" was substituted to the inscription "UNITED RUSSIA", and instead of the complete Russian coat of arms was used its center (patron of Russia SV Georgiy pobedonosets). As can be seen, there are no rosettes on the stamps. The question hence arises: "why it was necessary to use rosettes instead of the rating?".
Answer, however it is strange, by very simple. The producer of "essay" did not want to make the separate cliche for each stamp of release; therefore lateral ratings were substituted with rosettes, but to to center was added one additional rating, located on the screw die.
The additional analysis of the figure of the models of different ratings shows that they are printed from one and the same cliche. Rosettes on the stamps are identical, however, left and right rosettes are differed from each other, that there must not be, if the discussion deals with the essay or the tests, which were prepared sufficiently thoroughly.
Furthermore, left rosettes are located below right.
It is explained with the analysis of figure, that similar agreements exist also on other parts of the figure, for example, on the screw die of below figure.
A. Epstein's objection is not without foundation. He writes: "give, let us recall history. 4 already it referred earlier to the fact that the ratings of this series more or less correspond to the new tariffs of the south of Russia, introduced during January 1920 and affirmed, obviously, not long before this. Consequently, if this release actually was prepared, then preparation for it had to also begin not earlier than December of 1919. But at this time of the army Of denikina they stepped back along entire front. Novocherkassk, where previous stamps were printed, was lost during December, although the equipment EZTSB was possible to evacuate: according to one data - into Yekaterinodar, on others - into Simferopol'. Consequently, time to the thorough preparation be it could not, it was necessary to hurry, and united cliche in this situation is completely natural."
I cannot with this but agree and this my argument in favor of the fact that the release was fantastic, I remove. Actual, to make one and the same plate for the press of all ratings and, thus, to save the time of the preparation of print run for production, it is reasonable. It is strange, only that the cliche was made so slovenly and greater it is similar to the retouched photograph of "legal" stamp, than to the original cliche.
The absence of point after reduction"rub" speaks, that the release, most likely, foreign origin, since in those ancient times the absence of point after reduction was considered as the gross orthographical error. Besides THE RSFSR, where new orthography was introduced, 4 it found not one release of the period of the Civil War, wherever not there was point after reduction.
It is assumed that a series was printed in Italy, although A. Epstein's opinion appears more plausible. It considers that a series was printed in Russia, since the fantasies, prepared in Italy, were printed on grow prettier to white paper. It is not excluded, also, that they were prepared in Odessa, since, as writes A. Epstein, "according to a certain information, they were extended by initially certain merchant from Odessa. Another question, as they reach it."
If we weigh everything "about" and "dissent", then it is possible to draw the conclusion that this release, most likely, it is fantastic, although to assert this with the hundred per-cent confidence is impossible. An additional information and additional studies is necessary. In the given below table I tried to sum up everything "after" and "against".
SIGN Paper
ARGUMENT PRO The paper of poor quality, that there must not be, if the discussion deals with the essay. Argument is removed, if the discussion deals with the tests or the part of the print run.
ARGUMENT AGAINST In the situation of the swift retreat of white armies, as A. Epstein writes, "it was necessary to be satisfied by the fact that it fell into hands".
SIGN United cliche of the figure
ARGUMENT PRO The producer of stamps did not have serious typographical equipment and decided to simplify the process of press, using one and the same cliche for the press of all ratings of a series.
ARGUMENT AGAINST One and the same cliche was used for purposes of the savings of the time, necessary for the preparation for release for the output in the rotation.
SIGN Absence of point after "RUB"
ARGUMENT PRO The absence of point after reduction "rub" is gross orthographical error.
ARGUMENT AGAINST "similar errors were encountered and it is earlier, in particular, on zemstvo brands (after" kopecks"). However, in the hurry such is completely possible." A. Epstein absolutely rights, but besides THE RSFSR, where new orthography was introduced, 4 found not one release of the period of the Civil War, wherever not there was point after reduction.
SIGN Errors in the cliche
ARGUMENT PRO Cliche is prepared so negligently what is rather the retouched photograph of "legal" stamp, than by original figure.
ARGUMENT AGAINST Only explanation - this is the hurry, with which was prepared the release.
SIGN Colors of the stamps
ARGUMENT PRO Change it is color stamps justified in no way, since it would lead to the specific confusion. Perhaps, this is very deep argument in favor of the fact that the release was fantastic.
SIGN The check marks
ARGUMENT PRO On the release of General denikin there are sufficiently many all possible check marks. This of line, points, which designate the center of printed sheet and, even, the inscription: the "expedition of zagotovl. of valuable forms V.V.D. in Novocherkassk.". Nothing similar on socket release 4 it saw.
SIGN Paper and the glue
ARGUMENT PRO Paper barely is differed from the paper, used for the original release. Glue is somewhat more high quality, but also sufficiently rough. All this speaks in favor of the fact that the stamps were printed in Russia.
SIGN Print run
ARGUMENT PRO The print run of a series is too great so that the stamp it would be possible to consider essay or tests. Nevertheless, to consider this release the part of the print run also too boldly.
ARGUMENT AGAINST A. Epstein considers that this is the part of the print run.
Like many researchers, I consider that this release is fantasy on the theme of the release of General denikin. I is agreeable with A. Epstein's opinion, that the release was prepared in Russia, possibly in Odessa.
But here the already and perforated stamp appeared (eBay). Soon probably and complete set is formed. But that in the pairs - with the passage of perforation between the stamps.
It is possible to finish on this optimistic note.
I.F. IS MYASKOVSKIY, USA 14.10.2007
В© Myaskovsky Collection
LITERATURE
1. 3. Markovich, Fantasticheskiye the stamp of Russia and new formations. Rossika в„– 55, 1958. P. 39-42.
Non ho letto la traduzione al 100%, ma i primi paragrafi mi sembrano comprensibili, quindi ho riportato il tutto. Mancano le immagini, ma quelle è l'unica cosa che si capisce anche in lingua originale. Non posso non ricordare l'autore dell'articolo, Igor Myaskovsky, che puoi contattare tranquillamente nel sito della Rossica http://www.rossica.org.
Revised by Lucky Boldrini - October 2008
Fantasy on the theme of the release of General denikin
According to 3.I. To Markovich, the stamps Of denikina with the rosettes instead of the rating appeared on the market in 1919 and in this case were advertised as trial. At present they are sold as by "essays", however, analysis shows that these stamps are nothing else but one of the fantasies of those times.
Let us begin from the fact that the stamps are printed on the simple paper, whereas the present tests of the release of General denikin were printed on the dense clay coated paper. The paper is yellowish from the reverse side. About these tests he wrote "north -Kavkzski1 collector" in 1928.
From other side, Aleksandr Epstein voices the completely substantiated opinion that under the conditions of the retreat of white armies for entire front, the stamps were printed on that paper, which was near at hand. This really so, if we speak about the mass print runs of stamps, but to me it is not entirely understandable, why for the essay (tests) it did not be located several it was sheet grow prettier paper. Another matter, if these stamps were the part of the print run, which did not enter into the rotation, as A. Epstein considers. By the way, by this it is possible to explain the fact that the stamps with the rosettes are not philatelic rarity.
Were these stamps of essay, tests or by the part of the print run, is completely incomprehensibly why it was change the colors of stamps and create problems both for the post workers and for the population. Very clear example - stamp with the rosettes of two-ruble rating, which was released in the colors of usual desyatirublevoy stamp.
It is possible to visualize, by what "kindly, quiet" would in a word mention post service post workers, if this release nevertheless took place.
Should be focused attention also to the design of stamps. The ruble stamp of Russia served as the model for the ruble stamps of release. It is natural that the figure was substantially simplified, inscription "POST STAMP" was substituted to the inscription "UNITED RUSSIA", and instead of the complete Russian coat of arms was used its center (patron of Russia SV Georgiy pobedonosets). As can be seen, there are no rosettes on the stamps. The question hence arises: "why it was necessary to use rosettes instead of the rating?".
Answer, however it is strange, by very simple. The producer of "essay" did not want to make the separate cliche for each stamp of release; therefore lateral ratings were substituted with rosettes, but to to center was added one additional rating, located on the screw die.
The additional analysis of the figure of the models of different ratings shows that they are printed from one and the same cliche. Rosettes on the stamps are identical, however, left and right rosettes are differed from each other, that there must not be, if the discussion deals with the essay or the tests, which were prepared sufficiently thoroughly.
Furthermore, left rosettes are located below right.
It is explained with the analysis of figure, that similar agreements exist also on other parts of the figure, for example, on the screw die of below figure.
A. Epstein's objection is not without foundation. He writes: "give, let us recall history. 4 already it referred earlier to the fact that the ratings of this series more or less correspond to the new tariffs of the south of Russia, introduced during January 1920 and affirmed, obviously, not long before this. Consequently, if this release actually was prepared, then preparation for it had to also begin not earlier than December of 1919. But at this time of the army Of denikina they stepped back along entire front. Novocherkassk, where previous stamps were printed, was lost during December, although the equipment EZTSB was possible to evacuate: according to one data - into Yekaterinodar, on others - into Simferopol'. Consequently, time to the thorough preparation be it could not, it was necessary to hurry, and united cliche in this situation is completely natural."
I cannot with this but agree and this my argument in favor of the fact that the release was fantastic, I remove. Actual, to make one and the same plate for the press of all ratings and, thus, to save the time of the preparation of print run for production, it is reasonable. It is strange, only that the cliche was made so slovenly and greater it is similar to the retouched photograph of "legal" stamp, than to the original cliche.
The absence of point after reduction"rub" speaks, that the release, most likely, foreign origin, since in those ancient times the absence of point after reduction was considered as the gross orthographical error. Besides THE RSFSR, where new orthography was introduced, 4 it found not one release of the period of the Civil War, wherever not there was point after reduction.
It is assumed that a series was printed in Italy, although A. Epstein's opinion appears more plausible. It considers that a series was printed in Russia, since the fantasies, prepared in Italy, were printed on grow prettier to white paper. It is not excluded, also, that they were prepared in Odessa, since, as writes A. Epstein, "according to a certain information, they were extended by initially certain merchant from Odessa. Another question, as they reach it."
If we weigh everything "about" and "dissent", then it is possible to draw the conclusion that this release, most likely, it is fantastic, although to assert this with the hundred per-cent confidence is impossible. An additional information and additional studies is necessary. In the given below table I tried to sum up everything "after" and "against".
SIGN Paper
ARGUMENT PRO The paper of poor quality, that there must not be, if the discussion deals with the essay. Argument is removed, if the discussion deals with the tests or the part of the print run.
ARGUMENT AGAINST In the situation of the swift retreat of white armies, as A. Epstein writes, "it was necessary to be satisfied by the fact that it fell into hands".
SIGN United cliche of the figure
ARGUMENT PRO The producer of stamps did not have serious typographical equipment and decided to simplify the process of press, using one and the same cliche for the press of all ratings of a series.
ARGUMENT AGAINST One and the same cliche was used for purposes of the savings of the time, necessary for the preparation for release for the output in the rotation.
SIGN Absence of point after "RUB"
ARGUMENT PRO The absence of point after reduction "rub" is gross orthographical error.
ARGUMENT AGAINST "similar errors were encountered and it is earlier, in particular, on zemstvo brands (after" kopecks"). However, in the hurry such is completely possible." A. Epstein absolutely rights, but besides THE RSFSR, where new orthography was introduced, 4 found not one release of the period of the Civil War, wherever not there was point after reduction.
SIGN Errors in the cliche
ARGUMENT PRO Cliche is prepared so negligently what is rather the retouched photograph of "legal" stamp, than by original figure.
ARGUMENT AGAINST Only explanation - this is the hurry, with which was prepared the release.
SIGN Colors of the stamps
ARGUMENT PRO Change it is color stamps justified in no way, since it would lead to the specific confusion. Perhaps, this is very deep argument in favor of the fact that the release was fantastic.
SIGN The check marks
ARGUMENT PRO On the release of General denikin there are sufficiently many all possible check marks. This of line, points, which designate the center of printed sheet and, even, the inscription: the "expedition of zagotovl. of valuable forms V.V.D. in Novocherkassk.". Nothing similar on socket release 4 it saw.
SIGN Paper and the glue
ARGUMENT PRO Paper barely is differed from the paper, used for the original release. Glue is somewhat more high quality, but also sufficiently rough. All this speaks in favor of the fact that the stamps were printed in Russia.
SIGN Print run
ARGUMENT PRO The print run of a series is too great so that the stamp it would be possible to consider essay or tests. Nevertheless, to consider this release the part of the print run also too boldly.
ARGUMENT AGAINST A. Epstein considers that this is the part of the print run.
Like many researchers, I consider that this release is fantasy on the theme of the release of General denikin. I is agreeable with A. Epstein's opinion, that the release was prepared in Russia, possibly in Odessa.
But here the already and perforated stamp appeared (eBay). Soon probably and complete set is formed. But that in the pairs - with the passage of perforation between the stamps.
It is possible to finish on this optimistic note.
I.F. IS MYASKOVSKIY, USA 14.10.2007
В© Myaskovsky Collection
LITERATURE
1. 3. Markovich, Fantasticheskiye the stamp of Russia and new formations. Rossika в„– 55, 1958. P. 39-42.
Non ho letto la traduzione al 100%, ma i primi paragrafi mi sembrano comprensibili, quindi ho riportato il tutto. Mancano le immagini, ma quelle è l'unica cosa che si capisce anche in lingua originale. Non posso non ricordare l'autore dell'articolo, Igor Myaskovsky, che puoi contattare tranquillamente nel sito della Rossica http://www.rossica.org.
Revised by Lucky Boldrini - October 2008