"Formula Card" di Germania

[hageter]

Buonasera a tutti. Sto un po’ brancolando nel buio con una cartolina postale “Reichspost” annullata 1879 che non riesco a catalogare.
Sembra che sia senza stampa del valore perché se guardo nella parte inferiore del francobollo apposto si nota una linea tratteggiata (vedi foto del dettaglio) come se sotto ci fosse un riquadro tratteggiato. Però di cartoline del genere di questo periodo sul catalogo Michel degli interi non ne vedo proprio. In basso a destra è cifrata “c. 154.” se può aiutare.
Grazie a chi può darmi una mano
Mirko

[andy66]

E' una normale cartolina postale di fattura privata. Non rientra negli interi postali in quanto, essendo affrancata, non è presente l'impronta del valore

[hageter]

E' una normale cartolina postale di fattura privata. Non rientra negli interi postali in quanto, essendo affrancata, non è presente l'impronta del valore

Grazie Andy! Ma che tu sappia esiste qche catalogo in cui si trovano?

[andy66]

E' una normale cartolina postale di fattura privata. Non rientra negli interi postali in quanto, essendo affrancata, non è presente l'impronta del valore

Grazie Andy! Ma che tu sappia esiste qche catalogo in cui si trovano?

A me non risulta, sarebbe molto difficile farlo, non essendo emissioni ufficiali per le quali ci sia riscontro oggettivo.

[hageter]

Capito. Grazie per l’aiuto

[sfj]

E' una normale cartolina postale di fattura privata.

Most likely that is not completely right. (Wrong is the wrong word, there are just other components to consider)

It is not a postal stationery (without the preprinted stamp, at least it is not mentioned in any catalogue I know), but I thing it is printed and distributed by Reichspost.

For NDP (a few years earlier, but the same "rules") there are similar forms, which was sold at the post offices with a stamp affixed.
Some collectors consider them as stationeries, others not. Problem: how to prove, that the stamp was affixed in the post office BEFORE the stamp/the card was sold.

If you collect "interi postali tedesci" put this to your collection. The value should be similar to a postal stationery of similar design (usally only a very few euros ..)

Ciao
Stephan

[somalafis]

Il nostro amico Stephan non ha torto. Sono esistite in passato cartoline postali senza la stampa dell'impronta di valore (e quindi con l'applicazione di un francobollo adesivo) vendute dagli uffici postali in vari paesi, tanto che questa categoria di oggetti ha un nome specifico, quello di ''formula card''.
Un esempio a noi vicino e' quello della cartoline che l'ufficio postale vaticano (appena aperto) vendeva prima che fossero disponibili le sue vere cartoline postali con l'impronta di valore stampata. Ecco un esempio preso da Delcampe (purtroppo scritta ma non spedita)

v1.jpg

Il problema (di non seplice soluzione) e' distinguerle dalle cartoline ''private''....

[hageter]

Molto interessante, grazie ad entrambi per l’aiuto

One more question for Stephan: the druckdatum c. 154. has any meaning?
Ciao
Mirko

[debene]

Riccardo e Stephan,

la mia competenza è sicuramente limitata ma anche se è un distinguo alquanto discutibile io questi pezzi
non li collezionerei tra gli interi. Non essendo, ammetterai, valori postali possono secondo me al massimo
essere collezionati al pari di come viene collezionata la modulistica postale.

ma che tu sappia erano venduti, cioè avevano un costo di acquisto o erano distribuiti gratuitamente?

" my knowledge about this items is sure very poor but altough it could be questionable I preferably don't put
this items among postal stationery. You agree that don't have a postal value and it's better to collect them
as postal module.

do you know if they were sold by post office and have a selling price or were distributed free of charge? "

grazie



sergio

[andy66]

E' una normale cartolina postale di fattura privata.

Most likely that is not completely right. (Wrong is the wrong word, there are just other components to consider)

It is not a postal stationery (without the preprinted stamp, at least it is not mentioned in any catalogue I know), but I thing it is printed and distributed by Reichspost.

For NDP (a few years earlier, but the same "rules") there are similar forms, which was sold at the post offices with a stamp affixed.
Some collectors consider them as stationeries, others not. Problem: how to prove, that the stamp was affixed in the post office BEFORE the stamp/the card was sold.

If you collect "interi postali tedesci" put this to your collection. The value should be similar to a postal stationery of similar design (usally only a very few euros ..)

Ciao
Stephan

Certamente, Stephan, la scritta Reichspost ci indica che il venditore dell'oggetto furono le poste tedesche. Ciononostante poterla inserire in una collezione di interi postali la vedo dura, chissà quante altre postkarte private furono messe in vendita...se avessero avuto un francobollo dedicato sarebbe stato diverso.
Potrebbe comunque essere inserita in collezione a mò di esempio o curiosità.
Mostro un altro esempio di una cartolina di fattura austroungarica, bilingue, ma usata in Italia!

IMG_20171013_135418.jpg

[sfj]

Molto interessante, grazie ad entrambi per l’aiuto

One more question for Stephan: the druckdatum c. 154. has any meaning?
Ciao
Mirko

I don't think that it is a date. More a identifier for the "supply chain" when a office runs out of cards. Like the numbers of the Italian "Modulistica". But the German numbers are more on the "technical" side, not like the Italians, who used the same numbers over decades ... I never have seen any attempt in Germany, to make sense of the numbering schema ...

On Cita del Vaticano: Sorry, should have thought on these examples. For most Airletters/Aerogrammes there are versions without preprinted stamps. So it is sometimes hard to decides, if you have an aerogramme with a missing printed color or just the form (where the stamp is missing by design). According to a friend who collects aerogrammes Poste Vaticane has gifted the version without preprinted stamps to "good clients" ...

The NDP post has had similar post forms - they put on a stamp in the post office and charge only the stamp. I don't know, what happens if you only want the form without a stamp ... when I was young, you could get forms e.g. for AR or parcels without preprinted stamps for free. You had to ask - and you normally get only one or two. If you need larger quantities, you had to go to a shop where the were sold e.g. 100 forms at two or three Marks ... so Sergio ... they were gratis, but ...

[sfj]

valori postali possono

Si - they have no postal value. The postal fees was paid by a stamp.

And: they are no "interi" by strict definitions. But especially the anglo-american postal stationary collectors tend to have weaker definitions. Look at the registration envelope from the commonwealth: on some of them the preprinted stamp only covers the registration fee, on others the stamp covers postage and registration fee. Then there are some envelopes without any "stamps" but some text, indication that the registration fee was paid ...

And: the first Italian post cards has no stamp. The value was inficated below the words "cartolina postale" ...

Put these forms, which are very similar to official stationery in the stationery sections of you albums. They have "postal history values".

By the way, all definitions of "postal stationery" I know have "faults". E.g. the one used by Michel counts the "Telefonsprechkarten" from Bavaria - a small paper with a preprinted stamp on it, which you need when you want to phone from a post office ... - as stationery, but the "Telefonkarten" 100 Years later made of plastic and a chip, are not counted as stationery. The differences are in the material and in the fact, that the older ones where annullated by humans with a normal post mark, whereas the modern one where annulated by the phone ...

[hageter]

E' una normale cartolina postale di fattura privata.

Most likely that is not completely right. (Wrong is the wrong word, there are just other components to consider)

It is not a postal stationery (without the preprinted stamp, at least it is not mentioned in any catalogue I know), but I thing it is printed and distributed by Reichspost.

For NDP (a few years earlier, but the same "rules") there are similar forms, which was sold at the post offices with a stamp affixed.
Some collectors consider them as stationeries, others not. Problem: how to prove, that the stamp was affixed in the post office BEFORE the stamp/the card was sold.

If you collect "interi postali tedesci" put this to your collection. The value should be similar to a postal stationery of similar design (usally only a very few euros ..)

Ciao
Stephan

Caro Stephan, ho trovato questo articolo in rete, sembra che abbia qualcosa a che fare con il nostro argomento, c’è anche un immagine di una cartolina simile, ma è tutto in tedesco. Potresti dare un’occhiata?
http://www.philatelie-digital.de/wp-con ... at-was.pdf

10-Pfennige-von-1875-hat-was.pdf

Dice qualcosa di interessante?

Grazie per la tua competenza

Mirko

[sfj]

http://www.philatelie-digital.de/wp-con ... at-was.pdf

Mirko

it says that I'm wrong. Not on the card but on the stamp. It says that single frankings of 10 PFENNIGE (with the E) on post cards to foreign countries are rare. Not really rare, but you have to look some time to find one.
The postal stationery is quite common, and used as a single franking for a domestic letter is is also more than common. But on single frankings it was rarely used. (the other 10 Pfennig stamps from the different German definitives series are quite common. Rare is only the 10 Pfennige ...

the article says also the "private forms" where not so common as postal stationeries - this changes when picture postcards became polular around 1895/1900 ...

Scusi for some slightly inaccurate information.
Stephan

[hageter]

Dear Stephan, you don’t have to apologize at all. I thankyou very much for your great knowledge and priceless help.
Comparing with similar situations, can you try to estimate this postcard, more or less?

Thankyou again

Mirko

Revised LB Jan 2019