The clichés defects at the 15 Centesimi (Plate 1 and 2)

[Berni17]

Dear collectors!

I would like to introduce myself briefly.

My name is Bernhard, I am 39 years old and come from Vienna. I have been collecting the 1850 editions of Austria and Lombardo-Veneto for about 15 years. And it's great fun.
Unfortunately, the Italian editions (1850-1858) are hardly noticed in philatelic literature in German-speaking countries. One reason why I signed up here.

And here is my first post.

In the case of the lots I bought (auction) with regard to plate defects with specimens of the 15 Centesimi on hand-made paper (Type I), I first had the impression that it must be the same plate defect on the same plate.

On closer inspection I noticed that it is plates 1 and 2.

The plate 1 differs from the plate 2 by a very clear and good print, while the plate 2 has a medium to indistinct print.

In Ferchenbauer (Volume I, 2008) I found further examples. Here is a small overview

Plate 1 - 2.png

PLF = cliché defect, Platte = Plate
Abgeschrägte rechte untere Ecke = beveled lower right corner
Einkerbung der linken Randlinie = Notch in the left margin line
beschädigtes S in "CENTES" = damaged S in CENTES
deformiertes S in "CENTES" = deformed S in CENTES

And here are the specimens from my collection.

platte10.jpg

Plate 1 - Plate 2

platte11.jpg

Plate 2 - Plate 1

Notch in the left margin line (PLF 3 - PLF 13)

plf_3_10.jpg

Plate 1 - Plate 2

3_opti10.jpg

Plate 2 - Plate 1

best regards
Bernhard

[Aleroma]

Ho Bernhard,
Waiting for more Expert impressions I tell you that you are right; the 15 centes Type 1 was printed in two plates, in the First One we find well defined cliché with colours around Carmine. The second plate was a mixed One in wich they were both Type I and Type II. In that second plate they were used a lot of cliché used before in the First plate, and that's why we can find the same defects in both plates. As you mention the plates differ mainly on the print definition and on the colours, that in the second plate were more on vermilion tones.
By the way, the First second plate 15 c you showed looks like printed on gerippes paper.

[Tergesteo]

Hello Bernhard,

Welcome to our Forum!

Your observations are right: you can find the same plate flaws on plate 1 and 2 on the clichés of the first type.

When the second plate was prepared all the still usable clichés of the first plate were reused while a second type was produced (carved from a 10 CENT: matrice) correcting the KF defect and changing the shape of the figure 5.

But as many flaws where produced by the many printings deforming the clichés, you have many more probabilities to find them on late copies from the second plate, while what you see on the first printings are defects which occurred when the clichés were produced and before they were used for the printing itself.

If you look at the different topics you will find many entries about the plate flaws of the first emission.



Benjamin

[lucasa]

hy Bernhard , welcome to our forum

The study and collection of 15 centers of plate 1 and 2 is one of the most interesting and difficult of the entire emission . On the opposite is the only case that fully explain how the stamps were produced . The genesis of the 15 centes from the very early issue before June 1850 through the following year and the evolution of the plates can be understood by analysis the evolution of the plattenfheler themself , the colors and become evident when along the printing they started to substitute the damaged cliche of first type with the new cliche of second type .
Is the only case of plate with two different cliche type .

you can find a very comprehensive explanation in the articles of Peter Strizl that made the most important studies on 15 center describing up to 350 different cliche of the 15 center first type

the reference study was printed by a German philatelic society . I will try to find the reference

ciao Luca

[robymi]

Dear Bernhard,
welcome to our Forum.
I can tell you without a sufficient degree of confidence that you will be able to find here the most advanced studies and discussions related to Lombardy Venetia stamps, including several topics dedicated to plate flaws of each value.
Obviously, all the posts are in Italian, but there are many clear pictures to illustrate any aspects. Moreover, in case you have doubts related to translation of some specific sentences, please feel free to ask us and we will provide to you further explanations.
It is a real pleasure to have the opportunity of exchanging ideas with a collector from the "German-Austrian" world, where we know that there is a deeper attention to some aspects not always popular among Italian collectors.
Plate flaws is for sure one of them: personally I do not love this specific aspect, preferring by far the cancellations, for instance.
Have a nice navigation through our pages.
Roberto

[Berni17]

Thank you for your friendly welcome here in the forum.

@alemaro
Thank you for your hint. Here I can actually see a slight ripping (geripptes Papier).

@lucasa
You certainly mean:

Die Plattenfehler der 15 Centes Typen I und IIa - by :- Peter von Stritzl

I don't even know this literature yet. I can also offer you philatelic literature.

@robymi
On occasion I can show you my little Lombardy-Veneto stamp collection (with decorations).

One of my favorite books is the “10 Centes.” by Ferroni and Serone.

Ciao
Bernhard

[Morgan68]

Hi Bernhard,

herzlich willkommen.
Du lebst wirklich in eine wunderbar stadt (Wien).
Mein name ist Heinrich (Enrico) und ich sammle alles alte italienische staaten.

Nice to see you in the forum.
As you could see from the answers you already got the forum it's full of experts that for sure will help you should you have questions on Lombardie Venetie and the other old italian states.
I'm not an expert but it's nice to have other people joining us having all the same interests.
I'm looking forward to learn something more from you too.

Ich wunsche dir das beste.

Auf wieder "lesen"


Tschuss


Enrico

[Berni17]

With the few documents I have, I noticed that Stritzl made a mistake in describing the position of the C 224. It should be position 213 instead of position 230.

pagina 2.JPG

C 224.png

No watermark is possible in position 230.

Maybe someone has a picture of the C 224, then you could also compare it to see if it is identical to the A 308.

Best regards
Bernhard

[Berni17]

Hello everybody.

I discovered 2 letters with 2 pairs of the 15 C on the Internet with damage to the second E of Centes.

Brief Verona.png

"VERONA / 3 - 2 / 51", annullo R51 su coppia 15 Cent. rosso su lettera per Sabbio, cert. Raybaudi (Sass. 3a - 6P.)

Brief Oderzo.png

"ODERZO / 30 SET.", annullo SD su coppia 15 Cent. rosso, prima tiratura, su lettera per Auronzo, firm. Sorani (Sass. 3a - 4P.)


I have now tried to assign the cliche defects (according to Stritzl).


The letter from Venezia (05/02/51) is almost certainly an A259 - A289. (left margin)

A259 - A289.png

With the other letter I'm not sure whether the second stamp (right) is an A 210.

A257 - A210.png

In any case, the stamp on the left is an A 257. (ODERZO / 30 SET.)
(A 257 - A210?)

Plattenfehler.png

You may also have similar examples. I would like to get your opinion on this.

best regards
Bernhard

[lucasa]

ciao Bernhard

the classification of the Verona couple (a259 and 289) is in my opinion correct. compliment !!
it should be 99% from table IA ( the first one) because none of the cliche seems to be ritualized to prepare the table IB / II .

A257 is quite sure and A210 is the most suitable. Also this one is from table IA .

regards Luca

[fildoc]

A259 ok
these are mine and all with the watermark
position 153 !
No Strizl !

[pablita64]

To complete the clichés of the two pairs shown by Berny

173ED158-CEEC-4EA6-8D65-0948BCF73464.jpeg

BA5EEF8D-EBE8-4D8C-9A25-A2CDCCA52A69.jpeg

AA0BD0C4-95DD-469A-8967-96552F9C843E.jpeg

[Berni17]

Thanks for your posts - Luca, Mario and Massimiliano. Learned something again.

[Berni17]

Here is my latest addition.

Pos. 128.png

A xx - Pos. 128.png

The cliché shows a clear edge print with a decorative line interruption below the number 15 including a white spot above the letters T and E.

On the Internet I have now also found a comparison piece that has a position in the upper right margin.

Eckrandstück I.png

In Ferchenbauer (2008) it is listed on page 308 as cliché error no.25, but on closer inspection you can see that it is a different cliché.
I would be interested in your opinion.

Best regards from Vienna
Bernhard

[Tergesteo]

I have two pairs of mixed types from the second plate with a similar defect.

The stamp on the right (first type) is watermarked:

L&V coppia n°4-3 filigrana a destra plf Ferch 24 Muto Venezia.png

L&V coppia n°4a-3f plf Ferch. 24 filigrana a destra spazio tipografico in alto 2CO Verona 17 3.png

In the Ferchenbauer catalogue one of the samples of the defect n°25 bears a typographical space as in the second pair.



Benjamin

[fildoc]

they are different.
Bernie's is an upper right corner of the ministerial sheet.
Benjamin's is A18 position 92 of the second table

[Berni17]

I'll show you the A 83 of both plates. Plate 1 on the left and plate 2 on the right.
The stamp on the right side is on thin paper with 0.0675 (0.07) mm (Seidenpapier) and with particularly heavily colored print.

A 83 Platte 1 + 2_Easy-Resize.com.jpg

[Berni17]

I'm not sure, but I tend to pick an A18. Or is it an A 302 after all?

A xxx.png

best regards
Bernhard

[lucasa]

hi Bernhard , the last is very difficult ; being a plate 2 , is difficult to say A18 because of the defect that is more evident even in the plate 1.

regards LUCA

[Morgan68]

Hi and good evening,

i'm looking for some more detailed information concerning Peter F. Von Stritzl study on 15 cent. cliche defects.
Could you please provide me the name of the book and a suggestion on how to get a copy? Is it the study published in England?


Thank you very much